Screening = griefing?

[Corona Lisa]

Hey,

screening for portbattles is a disgusting mechanic and needs some fixing fast.

What is screening right now?

Screening is used to avoid fights. You take the cheapest and worst ships you can find and attack the biggest fleet possible in the area around a PB. Then you start an unwinnable fight, shoot some sails for 20 mins and surrender/escape/sink with no intention to win the battle at all. Your goal is to waste as much time of the enemy as possible.

That is not fun! Its boring for the screeners because they know they cant win and its boring for the other side because they cant get a nice fight.

Example: 

Those fights should not happen.

 

How can screening be fun?

Screening is fun as soon as you have to fight and you try to sink the enemy fleet instead of just delaying it. Here are 2 ideas on how to fix it:

Solution 1

Screening should be used to challenge the PB fleet with the intention of sinking it. Therefore we could increase the BR needed to attack other ships. For example if you would drag in a fleet with at least 20 ships you need 70% of their BR.

Solution 2

Step 1: Put a PvP zone around a region. It is used to generate hostilty and its used for screening. When your alliance dominate the zone (has more BR in there) or you sink enemy ships you will get hostility. You will have to gain it to a certain limit and when you can reach it the PB will be set up for the next day (24 hours later).

Step 2: PB will be lobbybased, people who gained the most hostility can join first (like it is now). Its basically the final of a long fight of the day before.

Additional rules for the 1st phase:

To make it fair and fun for all sides, limit the maximum BR per battle to 3000BR (there can be ofc multiple battles at once). This way pure numbers alone wont win you this phase and it also promotes to use a lot of different ships.

Kills gain a lot of hostility compared to just having dominance in that zone. This way fighting gets promoted and sitting in the zone and avoiding combat is not a good option.

Why BR and not number of ships in that zone to gain dominance? Because otherwise you could pick fast ships only and avoid fighting.

Its easy to understand, it promotes fighting and everyone can get involved.

 

Fix pls

[Lord Amplify of Key West]

screening is a tactical game and we dont run bad ships we run golden ones i agree that the br needed to tag is stupid and that the tagging circle is way too large but making pb's lobby based would deny the rest PVP

[Corona Lisa]

1 minute ago, amplify said:

screening is a tactical game and we dont run bad ships we run golden ones i agree that the br needed to tag is stupid and that the tagging circle is way too large but making pb's lobby based would deny the rest PVP

Yes tactical is fine, as long as actual fights happen.

[elite92]

never seen such a noob clan among pirates as they are.. im sorry for u Jon

[Thonys]

well screening can also be thriling

[Yar Matey]

In my opinion, currently, the whole port battle setup and design is broken.  The whole system is just dumb from beginning to end and it needs to be rethought.

First you have to grind PvE for a few hours to get a port battle.

Then wait 2 days

Then sail out of a port at a specific time 2 days later and get tagged over and over by screening fleets. 

And if you manage to make it to the port battle, all you see are heavy rattle snakes or Agamemnons if they are shallow water or 4th rate port battles. 

Port battles themselves are good and fun, but the process to get to a port battle, all of that needs to change and ships need to be rebalanced badly. 

[Guest]

My recent experiences with screening at least.

- Salamanca, entire first rate fleet got tagged by a few frigates and maybe a constitution, sat at max range and tagged ~5 of the first rates for about 15 minutes until the PB was auto-lost (pre-land in battles), ended up trying to fireship them for kicks but sails got cut, PB never happened.

- Pampatar, tagged 3 Agamemnons, sent my AI fleet to keep one tagged while using bow chasers and broadsides to keep two other ships tagged for as long as possible, eventually backed off and nobody died, PB was quick but the enemy lost due to not having a full fleet.

- Port-au-Prince, dragged ~5 pirate Agamemnons and a frigate in with myself, 1 other player and an AI fleet, cut sails for about 25-30 minutes until the battle was over before backing off, one AI ship died. Pirates never made it to the port.

- Orinoco, did a bad tag when not realizing that I had Frenchies providing BR nearby and signal perk spawning people too far away,  spawned in the middle of the enemy fleet so just delayed them for as long as possible before dying, respawned at the port to sail out and drag 3-4 Agamemnons into a fight and kept them tagged for as long as possible. Enemy lost the PB because they were missing a few ships.

All of those were with garbage ships bought at the closest NPC shop, so zero loss, and as the screener, not the one who's angry because he got screened.

Didn't really enjoy those screening fights, and as much as it's about getting more people involved it's also done at the expense of all the guys inside the PB itself who's action is lost in favour of what's going on outside.

The only time that such a crappy tagging fight was exciting was when I managed to drag in ~7 Danish 1st rates just as they were about to enter the Fort Baai PB just after the Road Town incident, because then it was high stakes, but that was quite a while ago now.

[Christendom]

I'd like to see some large PVP zone type of deal, similar to what JonSnow brought up.  Calling it a screening action 50v50.  Both sides engage, battle it out.  Side with the most kills at the end of an hour wins.  Attackers win their fleet gets into the battle.  Defenders win the attacking fleet is repulsed.   Obviously, more refinement is needed, but you get the idea.  Historically this would be an attacking fleet breaking a blockade or something similar so it has precedent.  

Short term the BR thing is the best option.  It's stupid that 5 line ships can tag a full 25 man fleet and it's stupid that 25 line ships can tag a basic cutter to hide.  

[JollyRoger1516]

It is called a delaying action for a reason. Also in the British nation we are actively discussing ways to make our small ships mroe powerful so we can actually sink the trapped fleet.

And as Amplify already said - we are not running cheap crap. The Surprise I run is golden and packed to the brim with golden mods. The only problem is that the cannons can't pen anything so unless we grape you down for 50mins I wont be able to board you leaving me with no options to defeat you in the end.

But I agree the rules for tagging currently are a joke.

[Lord Vicious]

The problem with screening is that you need 20%? br so you can screen huge fleet with grey shit ships sail around hit sails and tag ppl griefing them into a shit fight nobody enjoy.

If the screeners need to commit a real fight with a real fleet ,i would not mind be screen out and not reach the pb if at list i get a good fight after 2h of sail/organize and 2h for farm that damn port:

I HAVE A VERY EASY AND LOGICAL SOLUTION FOR THE DEVS:

Each port:

will have an area like capitals green zone where inside such area the br needed for tag is 50%? 60%?

That way ppl need to committ a real fleet

And OW will not be influenced by such high br needs for tagging, all happy

 

 

ps: the devs choice to reduce overall br of ships by 33%? not helped also since firstrates went from 900 to 600, that helped minor ships since their br is now more near to the big one so you need way less for tag a firstrate fleet then before. 

 

And the absurdely large super circle of tag not help also
 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Lord Vicious

[Tiedemann]

Lobby! -> Lobby! -> Lobby!

[Sturmherold]

Screening, not night flips, is the problem. This is a simple matter of population imbalance. Screening was fine under the flag system, because the defending nation had to move super quickly and did not have 80 screeners. Now, the smaller alliances simply cannot penetrate the zerg.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Sturmherold

[Chimera]

2 minutes ago, Tiedemann said:

Lobby! -> Lobby! -> Lobby!

That Would be the last nail for the coffin. 

[Tiedemann]

No, it would save the game instantly!

[Hethwill]

All defender alliance Attack PvP on a PB enabled on the region should extend the PB timer window ?

If defenders sink Attackers fleet on screen all good. If Attackers go through screen they still have time to initiate the PB due to time extension.

[SirSamuelHood]

9 minutes ago, Tiedemann said:

Lobby! -> Lobby! -> Lobby!

[Fenris]

2 hours ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

Hey,

screening for portbattles is a disgusting mechanic and needs some fixing fast.

What is screening right now?

Screening is used to avoid fights. You take the cheapest and worst ships you can find and attack the biggest fleet possible in the area around a PB. Then you start an unwinnable fight, shoot some sails for 20 mins and surrender/escape/sink with no intention to win the battle at all. Your goal is to waste as much time of the enemy as possible.

That is not fun! Its boring for the screeners because they know they cant win and its boring for the other side because they cant get a nice fight.

Example: 

Those fights should not happen.

 

How can screening be fun?

Screening is fun as soon as you have to fight and you try to sink the enemy fleet instead of just delaying it. Here are 2 ideas on how to fix it:

Solution 1

Screening should be used to challenge the PB fleet with the intention of sinking it. Therefore we could increase the BR needed to attack other ships. For example if you would drag in a fleet with at least 20 ships you need 70% of their BR.

Solution 2

Step 1: Put a PvP zone around a region. It is used to generate hostilty and its used for screening. When your alliance dominate the zone (has more BR in there) or you sink enemy ships you will get hostility. You will have to gain it to a certain limit and when you can reach it the PB will be set up for the next day (24 hours later).

Step 2: PB will be lobbybased, people who gained the most hostility can join first (like it is now). Its basically the final of a long fight of the day before.

Additional rules for the 1st phase:

To make it fair and fun for all sides, limit the maximum BR per battle to 3000BR (there can be ofc multiple battles at once). This way pure numbers alone wont win you this phase and it also promotes to use a lot of different ships.

Kills gain a lot of hostility compared to just having dominance in that zone. This way fighting gets promoted and sitting in the zone and avoiding combat is not a good option.

Why BR and not number of ships in that zone to gain dominance? Because otherwise you could pick fast ships only and avoid fighting.

Its easy to understand, it promotes fighting and everyone can get involved.

 

Fix pls

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Fenris

[Yar Matey]

56 minutes ago, Sturmherold said:

Screening, not night flips, is the problem. This is a simple matter of population imbalance. Screening was fine under the flag system, because the defending nation had to move super quickly and did not have 80 screeners. Now, the smaller alliances simply cannot penetrate the zerg.

That and also, nations with larger player populations naturally would have more ports, but the larger they expanded, the harder it got to defend your empire because it would be impossible to get to the port battle if you had an outpost that was simply too far away.

[Lord Vicious]

2 hours ago, rediii said:

Br needed should be relative to the BR size. It is a huge difference if a 3000BR fleet is fighting a 1800 BR fleet or if a 15000BR fleet is fighting a 9000BR fleet. (took the 60% example)

Like if you have 10k br then i need 80%? if you have 5k i need 40%?  or equal for tag? too complicate     my area idea is much simpler, then we can decide if must be 50 -70 -80% or equal..

Edited February 2, 2017 by Lord Vicious

[JeanJacques de Montpellier]

Too much math guys, too many mechanisms. Some, however, are good ideas (like those of Lord Vicious), partially solve the current problems, but they are not completely exhaustive.
Let's face it, with regard to PB / screening, the OW is just a farce, a semblance of OW, but in reality you are all still and close together (some ships one inside the other) or in the port. A farce, ugly to see. Would not it be better to a lobby at this point? A nice battle room with a certain number of ships per side.

[Yar Matey]

16 minutes ago, JeanJacques de Montpellier said:

Let's face it, with regard to PB / screening, the OW is just a farce, a semblance of OW, but in reality you are all still and close together (some ships one inside the other) or in the port. A farce, ugly to see. Would not it be better to a lobby at this point? A nice battle room with a certain number of ships per side.

Yes and no.... 

Should port battles be queue based using lobbies?  No conquest should be open world based and require open world sailing to actually conquer regions (or ports)

Should lobbies exists?  Yes!  Lobbies should exist so people can enjoy the game without the need to sail in open world.  Some people come here to play the game simply for the combat experience, and they should be allowed to have that experience without being forced to sail in what they would consider a "boring" open world. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Yar Matey

[JeanJacques de Montpellier]

I want also spend time sailing, but sailing in the battle; do not waste time by sitting out in a port, in other 10 ships (to hide their numbers).
If it makes a big battle room, you will have the option of sailing and engage or not.

[God Emperor Trump / Alan]

All I can say is that I am sick and tired of "screening".

I play this game to have battles, not sit in empty port while watching points tick up, because enemy fleet can't get in to fight us.

In what historical setting did a battle outside of a port prevent the fleet from attacking the port after the battle? Did the admirals in question go, "Oh shoot, it'll be outside the orders the admirality gave me! Better sail back!"

[Corona Lisa]

4 hours ago, Lord Vicious said:

I HAVE A VERY EASY AND LOGICAL SOLUTION FOR THE DEVS:

Each port:

will have an area like capitals green zone where inside such area the br needed for tag is 50%? 60%?

That way ppl need to committ a real fleet

Doesnt change much, because you still will get screened by some random shitfleet outside of that circle most of the time.

5 hours ago, Yar Matey said:

In my opinion, currently, the whole port battle setup and design is broken.  The whole system is just dumb from beginning to end and it needs to be rethought.

First you have to grind PvE for a few hours to get a port battle.

Then wait 2 days

Then sail out of a port at a specific time 2 days later and get tagged over and over by screening fleets. 

And if you manage to make it to the port battle, all you see are heavy rattle snakes or Agamemnons if they are shallow water or 4th rate port battles. 

100% agree. Its just so forced and prone to abuse and exploits. Do you have an idea for a solution to fix this stuff (apart from shipbalancing)?

39 minutes ago, JeanJacques de Montpellier said:

Too much math guys, too many mechanisms. Some, however, are good ideas (like those of Lord Vicious), partially solve the current problems, but they are not completely exhaustive.
Let's face it, with regard to PB / screening, the OW is just a farce, a semblance of OW, but in reality you are all still and close together (some ships one inside the other) or in the port. A farce, ugly to see. Would not it be better to a lobby at this point? A nice battle room with a certain number of ships per side.

Check solution 2. This way screening = getting hostilty = PvP zone and the actual PB is the big final (on the next day, lobbybased).

[Yar Matey]

13 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

100% agree. Its just so forced and prone to abuse and exploits. Do you have an idea for a solution to fix this stuff (apart from shipbalancing)?

1)  2 min no attack timer:  Once you are plopped back into open world you cannot be attacked for 2 minutes.  It doesn't sound like it would make a huge difference theoretically, but having 4x the amount of time (currently 30 seconds), will make screening harder as the attacking port battle fleet has more time to position, sail, join port battle once out of a screening battle.  Screeners, in theory, should get 1 shot at stopping the fleet, maybe 2 chances.  I think making the no attack timer 2 min would significantly improve the odds of a fleet to making it to the port battle and significantly decrease the amount of times fleets are attacked heading to the port battle.

2)  Being able to join the port battle from a much farther distance from the port:  Once you are in range (a certain distance away) of the port, you should get an option in the upper right hand corner of the map to join the port battle.  However, you should also start in the port battle at a farther distance from the capture regions based on where you enter in open world. 

Slightly off topic but i think its important to mention: 

3)  Conquest has to be slowed down significantly:  Individual ports should be captured not entire regions at a time.  Flipping entire regions with tuns of ports makes conquest way too fast. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Yar Matey