Hugh Latham

Fleets revisited

51 posts in this topic

What is the justification for fleets? At one point they were limited to low level players to assist them in getting comfortable with game mechanic without getting repeatedly sunk. That made sense to me. Currently, with all levels having access to fleets it just promotes ganking. Can anyone come up with reasonable arguments in support of a ganking mechanism built into the game?

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8 minutes ago, Hugh Latham said:

What is the justification for fleets? At one point they were limited to low level players to assist them in getting comfortable with game mechanic without getting repeatedly sunk. That made sense to me. Currently, with all levels having access to fleets it just promotes ganking. Can anyone come up with reasonable arguments in support of a ganking mechanism built into the game?

PvP event zones dont have AI in them. We find it puzzling that players complain about fleets and ganking by NPC fleets when areas with most pvp do not have any fleets whatsoever.

 

 

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Because fleets entirely remove the privateer playstyle from the game.  You cannot hunt player traders as a low level character when all the traders carry a pair of pocket frigates.  AI fleets make high ranking players automatically "better" than low ranking players, because they can crew fleets and new players can't.

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10 minutes ago, Powderhorn said:

Because fleets entirely remove the privateer playstyle from the game.  You cannot hunt player traders as a low level character when all the traders carry a pair of pocket frigates.  AI fleets make high ranking players automatically "better" than low ranking players, because they can crew fleets and new players can't.

Ah yes yes.. we have seen this before (with fine woods) which was done to reduce number of first rates and achieved this by - add fine woods, remove players, remove first rates as a result. 

Don't you see that removing fleets will remove solo traders from the game, which will in turn remove your privateer style from the game anyway? 

 

 

4 minutes ago, manuva85 said:

#noaifleets

Sail to pvp event zone - no fleets there. 

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Then only allow traders with cargo in player fleets. So they can protect their own trader(s) in their warship. I like this version better than the other way around since I at least wouldn't trust the AI in defending me and my trader.

 

6 minutes ago, admin said:

Sail to pvp event zone - no fleets there. 

Sorry but this is a disappointing answer. Right now we also often see players with fleet ships who use them to gank and not to defend themselves. Sure AI is still dumb but 3 ships chaining your ship is a big difference than only one. Now don't say that I can use fleets too. I refuse to do this because I don't like them and this would diminish my credibility ;)

We had a long time without fleets and few complained about it as far as I remember. Initially you wanted to reintroduce them because of a new way to handle captured ships which you have to sail back to port as your fleet ships. This didn't make it into the game so I really don't see the added value of fleets.

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I am a solo merchant and take my chances sailing without fleet escort. I get a lot done and occasionally lose my cargo. It is the price of admission. It does annoy me when my solo Indiaman gets taken by by 2 players who compensate for their ineptness by enlisting 2 ai. I know that any 2 of my mates would not need ai to cap one. In starting this thread I was not referring to merchants with fleet escorts, although as I said I don't use them, but to warships with fleet escorts.

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We never had our own fleets in POTBS and we got plenty of trading and hauling done but the OW wasnt full PvP like it is here, personally i dont think we need the fleets, we need to make more incentive for players to help players, ive escorted many players hauling or even just players in frigates wanting to get somewhere, ive purposly sacrificed my own ship to save a fellow mechants goods, it gave me something to do and satifaction of helping out.

Escort contracts? Give players some kind of incentive to help their fellow players, Price per distance and insurance for the ship escorting, the escorting ship can not turn pirate and attack the merchant, the contract isnt forfilled till it reaches it destination, 

This is just a different take on how it may work without fleets.

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PVP zone is full of nothing or alt farmers and large fleets, AI fleets can belong on the PVE server and are not used for anything other then giving poor players a security bubble. I know you have worked hard on AI fleets but they suck and are not good for anyone wanting true PVP.

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7 hours ago, admin said:

PvP event zones dont have AI in them. We find it puzzling that players complain about fleets and ganking by NPC fleets when areas with most pvp do not have any fleets whatsoever.

 

 

I find it puzzling that the dev team dont see their great work outside pvp zone.

6 hours ago, admin said:

Ah yes yes.. we have seen this before (with fine woods) which was done to reduce number of first rates and achieved this by - add fine woods, remove players, remove first rates as a result. 

Don't you see that removing fleets will remove solo traders from the game, which will in turn remove your privateer style from the game anyway? 

 

 

Sail to pvp event zone - no fleets there. 

I'm solo trader and I have never used AI fleet, simply because it slows me down, yet I see plenty of war ships around sailing with fleet. Stil, allowing only trader captains to have a fleet AI would be good but 1 ship should be enough.

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 I understand the need to restrict fleets, seing people with 2 inger or consti in fleet don't makes a lot of sense, if not removing the fleet option after a certain rank, at least limit them to corvette sized ships at max or make them limited to 1 ship fleet past a certain rank ? Another idea that have been suggested is to remove to option to put warships as fleets and only allow traders as fleet with cargo capacity on them

 The 1st and 3rd solutions would remove fleet as a viable option for aggresive gank and pb screen, the second one would just reduce the prejudice but not solve the problem.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, admin said:

Ah yes yes.. we have seen this before (with fine woods) which was done to reduce number of first rates and achieved this by - add fine woods, remove players, remove first rates as a result. 

Don't you see that removing fleets will remove solo traders from the game, which will in turn remove your privateer style from the game anyway? 

 

 

Sail to pvp event zone - no fleets there. 

Please consider Junk loot, missions and treasure chests with keys as rare drops or shop item. You will get many players back. ;)

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11 hours ago, admin said:

Sail to pvp event zone - no fleets there. 

I will say, on this issue, event zones are no place for a solo player.  Currently, I'm in my Surprise, alt-tabbed out, with a Swedish fleet of... one Reno, one Belle Poule, one Trinc, two Connies, and Agamemnon, an Indefatigable, and a Bucc.  This after I was sailing away from a pirate fleet of two Endymions, two Trincs, two Connies, and... I know there were some 3rds in there, or something to the effect thereof.

I know that you'll eventually focus on issues of the day-to-day mundanity of OW PvP, and you've been busy with other features.  I have faith that, by the time of launch, the issue of fleets will be somehow resolved, as it's a sticking point for so many players.  But for the nonce, PvP events are a non-starter for the solo player.

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A thought:

You sail a warship, you can only have as fleet 2 traders, traders which can carry gods in their cargo hold.

You sail a trader, you can have warships as scorts but nothing bigger than a fifth rate.

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NPC fleets sailing around is fine.  

 

AI Fleets added to the player ship is wrong.  I think they should be restricted to the size class of the ship you are sailing in.  If you are in a trader brig, a 6th rate, you should only be able to take a 6th rate or below escort.   

 

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My suggestion is fleets for hire by trade ships only. 

Cost would be based on BR hired with a max no more then 1.5 times the trade ships BR and distance traveled. You would pay for the BR upfront and the distance when you're back in port. It should be a costly affair to hire ships for a fleet, meaning fleets are rare and a sure bet to be a good prize for anyone willing to attack it. 

If you want more control you can select the type of ship/s you have sailing with you. The players crew would not be a factor. 

In battle they would be controlled just as they are now. 

Fleets can only be hired in friendly ports but will continue to follow you as long as you have cash to pay them and are in a trade ship. 

Edited by Daguse

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+1 to Daguse.

Hire escorts for trade.  They are not your ships or your crew but hired.  Paid in advance or for a share of the shipment if sold or paid.  Great way to limit fleets.

No more warship fleets!

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Fleets are fine for people sailing around in trader ships where they are pretty much defenseless, they are not fine for people sailing around in warships.  I have seen too many open world engagements which would have been good pvp fights ruined because one side brought a bunch of fleet ships.  I want to fight players not AI!  And it seems as though many of the player base has pointed this out over and over, yet the devs refuse to listen.  Fleets ruin good pvp, and water it down with BS AI.  I want to fight players, not their AI ships! 

#noaifleets

Edited by Yar Matey

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4 minutes ago, Yar Matey said:

Fleets are fine for people sailing around in trader ships where they are pretty much defenseless, they are not fine for people sailing around in warships.  I have seen too many open world engagements which would have been good pvp fights ruined because one side brought a bunch of fleet ships.  I want to fight players not AI!  And it seems as though many of the player base has pointed this out over and over, yet the devs refuse to listen.  Fleets ruin good pvp, and water it down with BS AI.  I want to fight players, not their AI ships! 

#noaifleets

I agree, however I don't think it's a refuse to listen but more of "it's further down the list". Remember, they just changed everything we know about PBs in the last two patches. 

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Maybe there should be a Command officer perk that gives you the ability to have a fleet? Make it steep, like 5 points.  Traders may still use it and maybe some warships but I don't think most would. 

#nofleets

Edited by Anne Wildcat
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On 12/28/2016 at 7:51 PM, admin said:

Don't you see that removing fleets will remove solo traders from the game, which will in turn remove your privateer style from the game anyway? 

You also lose players by turning open world PvP into PvP + PvE.  The entire issue would be solved and greatest number happy if you would stop making players play as sheep with AI taking sheepdog role.  The only AI player fleets should be trader ships that players escort with their own warship.  The primary use of AI fleets currently is to gain free DPS advantage over solo players. Players should do the fighting and not feel obligated to bring AI to every fight or be disadvantaged.  Changes needed:

-UI to manage AI trader cargo.

-either one AI trader per player, or readjust cargo capacity as needed. (Or just leave it as is: two ships with current capacity. Increased trading efficiency would probably make many very happy.)

-fleet composition not player ship must determine shallow water / port access (this is already a problem that needs to be solved).  Actually, I think this may be in now.

-"convoy" OW speed penalty so that solo player with 2x LGV does not gain PvP advantage over solo player (otherwise everyone will just bring armed traders as free extra DPS to attack any solo player with).  Player still has option of taking out their trader ship solo if they want to maintain best speed.  It is already very easy to run in game (pretty much everything is stacked in favor of the person who goes into a 1v1 with the intent to run), so this doesn't really disadvantage the solo trader as long as they pay attention on OS.

Warship helpers for new players are irrelevant because AI help is provided in missions (you could perhaps allow the mission "owner" to command this AI, perhaps with limitations for higher level hostility missions) and newbie zone does not allow fleets (but they could be allowed in newbie zone under above system, making solo trading there more viable. Newbie zone is currently, ironically, most dangerous area to solo trade.

Edited by akd
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Btw, I always solo trade without fleet. If you are scared of being captured take a traders Lynx (mine is grey and still has not been caught) and take multiple trips. Traders do not need fleets, imo.

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I've been talking with admin on this issue.  As many of you know, game development tends to focus on one item at a time.  However, fleets will be visited in the future, there will likely be some minor penalties and perk point costs associated with them.

Knowing that now, it is on us to be patient until they get to that point, while they work on many of the other things that they have on the development plan.

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I like fleets. Sailing solo with valuable cargo is too risky.

Edited by Kloothommel
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