Graping mechanics kills naval combat. Attention required

[Koltes]

Current graping mechanics is unreasonable.

 

 

Simple numbers:

When you shoot enemy ship with balls and reduce their armor trying to sink them, you must reduce armor to zero on at least one side. This means you got to maneuver to a right position to the enemy ship to shoot the weak side. So the Armor "hp pool" is divided to 2 parts - the sides of the ship. If you are good with sails you will manage to hide your weak side long enough to stay above the water.

 

When you graping the crew there is only ONE "hp pool" no matter which side you are are shooting. You cant hide it. You just have to stay away from the graper.

Here is more. The crew entire "hp pool" is weaker then one side of the armor "hp pool" (½ of armor total HP). Two ships going side by side one is graping and the other is shooting balls, the graped ship will lose everytime due to having crew killed faster than killing half of the armor on one side of the enemy.

 

 

Another simple comparison:

When you got your armor reduced you can pop repair and get it restored.

You cant do so with crew.

The crew "hp pool" is unrecoverable!

Why would someone want to shoot the ship trying to maneuver to shoot only one side, basically killing it twice after the repair is popped, when you could simply stick with the enemy ship on any side, grape his crew until its not manageable and he cant ever recover from that. The is no "crew repair" button...

 

This creates a very easy tactic that requires minimal skill and is lately been abused quite a lot.

It really kills the game for those who mastered manual sailing, those who can read the wind properly, those who can out think the enemy 2-3 moves ahead, who mastered ship positioning, giving leaks ... all those wonderful battle mechanics that makes this naval game a real action. Now all these skills are worthless because of the current graping mechanics.

 

 

Suggestion:

1. Graping ships with armor has little effect like it was. Before you can grape the crew the armor needs to be reduced to 1/3 at least.

2. Pushing R to switch off the side cannons makes crew to stop working on that side of the ship. It should also make them leave that side for real and if that side get graped the crew loses are minimal while that side is switched off. Doesnt have to happen instantly. It takes time for crew to relocate/hide. But more crew leaving the side less you should lose.

3. Any ship (since we keeping this as historical as possible without calling this a simulator) every battle ship should have a doctor. Make a Crew Recover ala repair function that uses your consumable Medkits.

 

All this will make graping harder and will require actual skill to reduce armor, macro manage the crew by assigning them, poping crew recovery on time etc.

 

Thank you in advance

 

 

[bLACK] Koltes

pvp2

Edited September 28, 2016 by koltes

[theTopsail]

Love the idea of an on board doctor!

[Thonys]

i agree the graping of the ships has a way to much influence on the win chance of the graper

 

a ship who can stay behind the back of a big sol always wins ,and thats because the sol is to slow to turn

 

i real time it does not work that way

\ and therefore i call it actually a exploit

 

a frigate would certainly not come closer then 400 meters to a sol because that would mean a certain dead of the frigate

in this game the frigate can stay behind a sol as if the sol is defenseless to any ship who comes behind a sol

in real life they would tow (or enter ) (harpoon) the frigate in >  to board him if he came to close 

 

also i think some frigate type ships are to maneuverable, and sol are to slow on turning..

 

rework is needed on that mechanic

 

(ps ,at some point at the actual life of the constitution that ship was balanced so much (by one of his latest captains) it could reach up to a speed of 13.5 knots  )

Edited September 28, 2016 by Thonys

[Stilgar]

Good analysis and sensible proposal. Rework of grape mechanics is in order.

[admin]

 

 

a frigate would certainly not come closer then 400 meters to a sol because that would mean a certain dead of the frigate

 

 

 

What do you say to a Leander vs Generoux engagement? 50 gun frigate vs 70 gun 3rd rate? Leander almost won (but ammo ran out)

What do you say to a successful boarding attempt of a heavy british ship by french Captain Surcouf in a light vessel?

What do you say to a 14 gun brig Speedy boarding a heavy spanish 32 gun Xebec El Gamo?

Or a russian brig Mercury fighting off 2 Turkish 80 gun ships and demasting one of them at very close range?

[Koltes]

What do you say to a Leander vs Generoux engagement? 50 gun frigate vs 70 gun 3rd rate? Leander almost won (but ammo ran out)

What do you say to a successful boarding attempt of a heavy british ship by french Captain Surcouf in a light vessel?

What do you say to a 14 gun brig Speedy boarding a heavy spanish 32 gun Xebec El Gamo?

Or a russian brig Mercury fighting off 2 Turkish 80 gun ships and demasting one of them at very close range?

 

True that, however this does not change the fact that graping is hugely OP and its now much abused.

We need tools to protect, manage and restore the crew.

As well as a Surgeon perk like Expect Carpenter.

 

Just trying to help to make this great game even greater instead of yelling "nerf this nation, nerf that nation"

Thank you!

[Hethwill]

Naval combat is all about dismantling a ship and force a surrender, battering a crew by constantly shooting the wooden walls and force them into submission and to surrender, or overwhelming the enemy ship with boarding crew and force it to surrender.

 

NA Combat simulates all of this with a couple shortcomings, one of them being dynamic Morale of both ships crews.

 

Another shortcoming is the effective difference on guns. At the moment any frigate will be quite comfortable facing a 74 as it will dish out more destruction with the carronades as the 74 can do with double amount of guns ( mediums and longs ).

[Eishen]

True that, however this does not change the fact that graping is hugely OP and its now much abused.

We need tools to protect, manage and restore the crew.

As well as a Surgeon perk like Expect Carpenter.

 

Just trying to help to make this great game even greater instead of yelling "nerf this nation, nerf that nation"

Thank you!

 

Agree on the grape problem but not on the solution, if hull repairs are making the problem worst (as you pointed) specially with some configurations, creating "crew repairs" seems to me as making a new hole in another wheel to stabilize the car.

 

It is historical (as hethwill points) trying to win by eliminating the other crew will to fight (that was crew losses mean, not deads),  most captains want to take the prize instead of sink it.

 

A better solution IMHO maybe upgrading round shot effect on that crew will to keep fight on (losses).

 

and limiting ammo in battle 

 

... Leander almost won (but ammo ran out)...

[Eishen]

 

a ship who can stay behind the back of a big sol always wins ,and thats because the sol is to slow to turn

 

 

 

This is a separate problem,  bigger imo ... there are indeed many examples of lesser boats taking big ones...and those are couonted as historical feats,,, but  in the current state of the game it seems the rule more than the exception than a unescorted  SoL is the underdog in those battles with even players ....and (at least to me) this seems weird

[Hethwill]

In game examples of a 1v1 comparable to the Speedy/Gamo are very very rare. In game would be a schooner versus a frigate.

 

The SOL vs frigate is way more common indeed.

[TommyShelby]

A Ship of the line without escort? 

That is just asking to be taken as a prize honestly. 

 

2 Ships of the Line without escort? Play it well and you are almost untouchable.. 

[Eishen]

A Ship of the line without escort? 

That is just asking to be taken as a prize honestly. 

 

2 Ships of the Line without escort? Play it well and you are almost untouchable.. 

 

in the GAME it is exactly as you say, that is the weird part (to me) I really think a third class sailing alone was not "free prize "  at the time

[Thonys]

What do you say to a Leander vs Generoux engagement? 50 gun frigate vs 70 gun 3rd rate? Leander almost won (but ammo ran out)

What do you say to a successful boarding attempt of a heavy british ship by french Captain Surcouf in a light vessel?

What do you say to a 14 gun brig Speedy boarding a heavy spanish 32 gun Xebec El Gamo?

Or a russian brig Mercury fighting off 2 Turkish 80 gun ships and demasting one of them at very close range?

first of all boarding ,demasting and graping are different things

 

well lucky things happens some times 

other factors are mostly the case when the winnings go to the underdog (mutiny, moral, the will to fight, exhaustion ,lack of food and rum, for example)

 

but that does not mean when rare things accure it counts for every battle 

 

in this game it work in one direction 

a fast frigate against a slow turner is a full grape on the back of the sol (on the side even over a hundred men)

 

(what is in the heaviest recorded case was 40 men in one grape )

[Fuzzyhead12]

Current graping mechanics is unreasonable.

 

 

Simple numbers:

When you shoot enemy ship with balls and reduce their armor trying to sink them, you must reduce armor to zero on at least one side. This means you got to maneuver to a right position to the enemy ship to shoot the weak side. So the Armor "hp pool" is divided to 2 parts - the sides of the ship. If you are good with sails you will manage to hide your weak side long enough to stay above the water.

 

When you graping the crew there is only ONE "hp pool" no matter which side you are are shooting. You cant hide it. You just have to stay away from the graper.

Here is more. The crew entire "hp pool" is weaker then one side of the armor "hp pool" (½ of armor total HP). Two ships going side by side one is graping and the other is shooting balls, the graped ship will lose everytime due to having crew killed faster than killing half of the armor on one side of the enemy.

 

 

Another simple comparison:

When you got your armor reduced you can pop repair and get it restored.

You cant do so with crew.

The crew "hp pool" is unrecoverable!

Why would someone want to shoot the ship trying to maneuver to shoot only one side, basically killing it twice after the repair is popped, when you could simply stick with the enemy ship on any side, grape his crew until is not manageable and he cant ever recover from that. The is no "crew repair" button...

 

This creates a very easy tactic that requires minimal skill and is lately been abused quite a lot.

It really kills the game for those who mastered manual sailing, those who can read the wind properly, those who can out think the enemy 2-3 moves ahead, who mastered ship positioning, giving leaks ... all those wonderful battle mechanics that makes this naval game a real action. No all these skills are worthless because of the current graping mechanics.

 

 

Suggestion:

1. Graping ships with armor has little effect like it was. Before you cant grape the crew the armor needs to be reduced to 1/3 at least.

2. Pushing R to switch off the side cannons makes crew to stop working on that side of the ship. It should also make them leave that side for real and if that side get graped the crew loses are minimal while that side is switched off. Doesnt have to happen instantly. It takes time for crew to relocate/hide. But more crew leaving the side less you should lose.

3. Any ship (since we keeping this as historical as possible without calling this a simulator) every battle ship should have a doctor. Make a Crew Recover ala repair function that uses your consumable Medkits.

 

All this will make graping harder and will require actual skill to reduce armor, macro manage the crew by assigning them, poping crew recovery on time etc.

 

Thank you in advance

 

 

[bLACK] Koltes

pvp2

 

intresting but very subjective, usually Grape on full amor can only kill crew on the weatherdeck and behind the gunpors, you can infact hide and navigate your ship to keep the grape loss at bay. also ballshots are smometimes more effective to kill crew then grape, like ballracking a bellona with a small ship is more effective then graping it.

 

on the otherhand, onedeck ships, like niagara, the cutter and privateer, can be decrewd in one salvo of grabe by a similer sized oponent. But the privateer is a front and aft rigged ship and can easily escape after such hit, cutter too, niagara can use its carronades before getting into grape range.

 

 

Grape range, compared to ball is very short and on longer distances fairly ineffective, however ive had severel occasion where my deck was sniped with grape, thats skill not a broken mechanic.

Is grape an allrounder ship killer, No

 

if grape is effecteve depends, on the ship you shoot at, and the ship you sit in. You have a greater chance of cleanin the weatherdeck of a enemyship if your guns are in a higher position, and the enemy has an armend weatherdeck.

some frigates are fairly sensible about grape, the Cherubin for excample is easy to get graped, but requires a small crew to be effective in battel.

 

Grape is a varible ammo if you know how to use it, but if the enemy knows how to keep away of you, like chaining your sails, then you will loose the fight then you only use grape.

 

Conclution, use the right ammo for the right ship and situation and you will win.

[Dekillos]

Link please screens or videos about graping OP in fullarmor. I never see this in fights.

[Fuzzyhead12]

Link please screens or videos about graping OP in fullarmor. I never see this in fights.

you can clean up the weatherdeck on some of the "Metaships" like trink then shes heel towards you, a good salvo of grape will result of something around 80 crewkills

[Hethwill]

Link please screens or videos about graping OP in fullarmor. I never see this in fights.

 

Sweep open decks. Easier to do with a higher wall ship versus a lower one i.e. Trinc versus Surprise.

[admin]

 

 

NA Combat simulates all of this with a couple shortcomings, one of them being dynamic Morale of both ships crews.

 

 

 

We believe morale has no place in naval action. Player should be able to fight until he wants to stop. Systems making such decisions will make a lot of mistakes and impossible to tune until some other systems are taken out. 

 

For example. Warning shot from a 74 will force your light frigate to surrender, just because system thinks your morale dropped due to a presence of the overwhelming force and low probability of victory ignoring player skill and situation. Impossible to tune and if you tune those systems they will end up with morale having no effect on anything. 

 

Morale will work well in a grand admiral type of game where player commands a grand fleet and has no effect on anything except for general direction of squadrons (but squadrons decide everything else based on unit stats and RNG). 

[Hethwill]

Yes, I agree on that part where it can provoke more unwanted player dismay due to uncontrollable situations.

 

On the morale note I was watching a streamer which, with his consort ship kept another in perpetual shock, it was amazing to see and learned a few new things.

[Cecil Selous]

Morale loss should never make you auto surrender. I agree on that. It should always be my decision if I strike the colors or continue to fight. Also moral shouldn't be influenced by the sheer presence of an overwhelmig force but only by damage taken.

We already have reload shock if you take too much damage in a short amount of time. But the crew completely recovers from that. A morale system could have an impact on efficiency. Right now your efficiency lowers with crew loss. You can't reload all guns anymore, can't man the sails completely and if you have leaks the situation worses. However, if you disable one broadside and your stern and bow chasers too, you can still reload the other side in the given time.

With an morale impact on efficiency, this reload time will get longer although you can man those guns entirely. Also the speed of crew transfer could be affected by that.

 

Of course there is still the problem that those mechanics would be too artificial for a game and if they just lead to a more frustrating gaming experience.

 

BTW: how is the initial morale at the beginning of a boarding action between two players calculated? Straight away I can't remember if both opponents always start with 100%.

[shaeberle84]

I completely agree with the thread opener.

[Cecil Selous]

you can clean up the weatherdeck on some of the "Metaships" like trink then shes heel towards you, a good salvo of grape will result of something around 80 crewkills

 

That's right and we all get how the game mechanics work to achieve this but is it plausible or even realistic? Was it a thing back then in the age of sail to kill (or wound) most of the enemy weatherdeck with one broadside of grape? Battle reports say otherwise in my opinion. Battles that lasted for hours with fewer casulties than the ones we can achieve in one grape broadside to the weatherdeck.

Of course there are many sailors cramped together, but there are also all those hammocks in the netting around the ship that gave some protection. And the bulwarks aren't that low, that you are fully exposed even if your heels into the enemy.

Like I said in the other grapeshot thread I don't thnik that grape is broken, it is simply too effective.

[Zooloo]

Personally i don't think a lone SoL is an easy prey to a surprise or renommée if the SoL captain plays it right. Maybe to a Belle Poule or bigger but still, i would not say it's an easy win.

 

I tried it several times, and the only times i won it, it was because the SoL captain didn't turn with sails, tried to hit my hull instead of chaining / demasting me etc. Maybe i'm doing it wrong don't know... But it's not easy for sure !

 

If you can link a video of a frig owning a SoL easy mode, where both catains are equally skilled, i'd be curious, both for providing proofs to this debate, and it would allow me to try to learn and improve my tactics.

[Fuzzyhead12]

That's right and we all get how the game mechanics work to achieve this but is it plausible or even realistic? Was it a thing back then in the age of sail to kill (or wound) most of the enemy weatherdeck with one broadside of grape? Battle reports say otherwise in my opinion. Battles that lasted for hours with fewer casulties than the ones we can achieve in one grape broadside to the weatherdeck.

Of course there are many sailors cramped together, but there are also all those hammocks in the netting around the ship that gave some protection. And the bulwarks aren't that low, that you are fully exposed even if your heels into the enemy.

Like I said in the other grapeshot thread I don't thnik that grape is broken, it is simply too effective.

the bigger question is, did the Captains and Comander had the knowlege we achieved due the severel hundred of gamehours? some of us gamers know and predict certain movement heels and so on. We load grape on a trink hope she depowers to late and shows us our weatherdeck and we sweep it, Because we know it is possible, we know the heelproblem and we know it because we learned it after several defeats.

 

A Comander had only one live, they would have been able to achieve similer actions if they are fast thinking and knows the effectifness of said ammo, but would they take the risk of shooting grape on the weatherdeck, or go for ballshot depends on the Commander, the possebilities are to much to consider it.

To the weatherdeck and protection, actually protection IS modeled in the game, cannons are solid and will protect everything behind it, the mast will eat the grape and staircases and other obstacles will also eath the grape. Hammocks wer also not stored on the weatherdeck they were stored into the hullwalls for protecting from splinters after an inpact.

 

A grape in the rear would be devastating no matter  if in real life or not, however the game dosent models the crew taking cover, that probelly the only thing that makes grape seems a bit powerful, if i see a ship starting firing at me, iam damn sure to hide behind a 32pdr carronade

[SheepDip]

I have graped ships with armor left on all sides and have killed crew , maybe not 80 a shot but if you hit it @ deck level (it's not easy) you WILL kill crew 

no matter how much armor is left , done it many times