Ojibwa_Wind

Fleets

92 posts in this topic

+1 to getting rid of fleets.

 

The fleets were a noob crutch when they were originally around, supporting mediocrity and leading to the noobs getting wrecked once they were removed or they got past rank 3... now fleets are grown noob crutches. The real noobs can't use them because they don't have the crew to do so leading to all the grown players who should be better than this using them. 

 

I'm all for allowing the indiaman to have an escort or two but fleets absolutely need to go for warships. They're dumb, both in the ai and implimentation, they don't add anything to the battles they just prolong it and support bad sailing/captains. 

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Ships did sail the seas alone especially in the Caribbean. Sometimes they would group for mutual support. Sanctioned convoys usually laden with heavy treasure of metals or other luxury items usually had two appointed cruisers, plenty of reports regarding that.

Traders wouldn't benefit from a Post squadron of their own. Post squadrons would focus on attacking the raiders, usually at their havens, and not babysitting the traders. ( ie. Madagascar )

 

Post Captain rank required a display of gallantry and courage against the odds during times of war and not by farming missions. More players than I would dare to say would never get a Post.

 

I have came across many player traders which have the decency to use the NPCs that populate the world and find safety by sailing with them.

 

I learn to live with them skynet convoys but still I stand with Pete and many others #nofleets.

 

They did sail in groups, they did sail as fleets.  Fun fact, the United States in the early 1800s built a large number of Sloops and brigs for hunting shipping of the British to cut off the supply from the West Indies.   The British responded by increasing the numbers of light ships "unrates" themselves and sending them along with trade ships to protect them from these small fast American raiding vessels.  

 

"During the Napoleonic Wars, the Royal Navy increased the number of sloops in service by some 400% as it found that it needed vast numbers of these small vessels for escorting convoys (as in any war, the introduction of convoys created a huge need for escort vessels), combating privateers, and themselves taking prizes."-Winfield, Rif, British Warships in the Age of Sail: 1714–1792, Barnsley (2007) ISBN 978-1-84415-700-6

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Without fleets for my trader ships...I would be lost.    no way.   

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Trader lynx with his AI conni attacking my trader lynx.

Player in mercury with 2 AI niagara attacking my snow.

 

This is so wrong.  Players with AI fleets should have attack button disabled.

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There is no need for AI fleets, period. Noobs cant field them effectively. If you have the crew for a bigger ship, get the bigger ship. 

 

Need an escort for your valuable cargo? Hire someone and increase the PvP on the PvP Server, and put some of that wealth back into the economy by paying those escorts.

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Trader lynx with his AI conni attacking my trader lynx.

Player in mercury with 2 AI niagara attacking my snow.

 

This is so wrong.  Players with AI fleets should have attack button disabled.

 

So because I'm a Post Captian I should not be able to say.  Lt and 2nd Lt you get in those ships and come with me.  There is a trouble some Pirate hunting our traders in such and such area and we need to stop them.  So I go on patrol wiht my two Niagara's in some shallow waters and I prevent you from hitting other ships?  Maybe you should of got some help.  With either other players or fleet of your own.  If your not of rank to crew more than one ship than you prob should be watching out more and picking more fair fights or avoiding the ones you are out number.  What is the difference from one player with two AI or three players?   The fact you have better odds against the one player with two AI that tend to do stupid stuff and can't sail or aim for crap half the time.

 

To be honest the only reason I bring two AI's now with my Merc is cause the US PvP2 Nation players are now brining fleets with them to Port battles so we Pirates are doing the same to counter them.   It's cause they can't win a fair fight when they even out number us.  I know this cause I use to be in the US nation and watched them bring Basic ships with no mods and keep complaining why they where getting suck so fast.  Uh cause you brought a crap ship to a major fight.

 

There is no need for AI fleets, period. Noobs cant field them effectively. If you have the crew for a bigger ship, get the bigger ship. 

 

Need an escort for your valuable cargo? Hire someone and increase the PvP on the PvP Server, and put some of that wealth back into the economy by paying those escorts.

 

Noobs as you call them can't even field them cause they don't have the crew to fill the ships up.  So most the times it's some one that has been playing the game for a while and has some clue.

 

Hate to tell you unless it's a clan mate most folks aren't going to go and be bored while you sail cargo a long distance and not get paid.  Cause to be honest I have rarely every had some one offer money for me to escort there ship safely.  Though I have been screamed at in chat after they get tagged in there trader just after we warned every one such and such ships was patrolling that area hitting traders and our ships.  Many of these folks aren't noobs at all according to there ranks, they just don't pay attention and only want help when things are going bad for them.

 

You know what I do when I see AI ships.  I SINK THEM.  Cause guess what that crew they just lost or even the ship if I board it just cost them money.  Even if they get away and most the time they don't cause we can blow past the AI and get them.  Than come back and sink/kill the crew of the AI ships with no problems.  Even when out numbered and no AI ships of our own.

 

reasonable compromise:

a. no AI fleets to warships

b. limit them to traders and only to the ones who need them (Indiaman)

c. put a limit on selectable ships for AI fleets (only be accompanied by XY ships)? 

 

This makes it more predictable for trader hunter and you should perform better.

But, imho. I don´t see the point putting a limit on it.

 

The "crew management" system balances it nicely. Do I take the risk on my own? No, okay.

Then my profit will be reduced y putting AI fllet on it, because I usually loose a lot of crew.

 

Wait, wait. New solution:

AI fleet?

Hiring cost.

Balancing by hiring cost.

The risk-averse player will take it more oftenly,

the risk-lover will go without.

 

There is all ready a limit to the ships you can bring.  Shallow water or Deep water depending where you are going to sail.  You are also limited to the number of crew you have to man them.  Sorry some new player should not be on the same level as me with crew and ships.  Cause I can man and command more ships than they can shouldn't mean I should be limited and not allowed to do so.

 

Though I wouldn't mind if they did a class limit cause i think it's silly to see a Lynx with two SOL or even Frigates escorting it.  Maybe you can only fleet like ships?

Edited by Sir Texas SIr

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They did sail in groups, they did sail as fleets.  Fun fact, the United States in the early 1800s built a large number of Sloops and brigs for hunting shipping of the British to cut off the supply from the West Indies.   The British responded by increasing the numbers of light ships "unrates" themselves and sending them along with trade ships to protect them from these small fast American raiding vessels.  

 

"During the Napoleonic Wars, the Royal Navy increased the number of sloops in service by some 400% as it found that it needed vast numbers of these small vessels for escorting convoys (as in any war, the introduction of convoys created a huge need for escort vessels), combating privateers, and themselves taking prizes."-Winfield, Rif, British Warships in the Age of Sail: 1714–1792, Barnsley (2007) ISBN 978-1-84415-700-6

 

Creating the need and actually putting into practice are different things as you surely know. I am sure you are educated enough to dig deeper to what is behind a single line.

As an example let's say one of the heaviest laden convoys was escorted by two frigates dettached from Pellew's squadron while he was posted in blockade duty along brittany coast.

Two frigates for six trader ships, and that's because the cargo was "state sanctioned" albeit being hauled by private company.

The same way a treasure fleet from the spanish crown was escorted by two frigates. Was assaulted by RN but during the night they managed to transfer the cargo to smaller ships that came from Cadiz and thus foiling the pursuers intentions.

The RN did not force a blockade on many french privateer ports just because they were ineffective. In truth it was the only way they could effectively give the traders a "sense of something was being done". Numbers of prizes falling into french hands speak by themselves, the same as french trade numbers jumped by Brittish also account to support it.

 

It is a game and there's enough NPC fleets around to provide shelter to a trader and they actually get spawned automatically by player presence in the area so they are almost always there.

 

The mechanic is here and it is used. Fine, okay, I understand, I have to play the game knowing it is in game, but I do not like it.

I simply cannot find a strong reason for them to be in game without unbalancing a whole OW collection of gameplay. It is simply a gimmick for "single players" that populate a multi player game. But then when they are jumped by a true fleet of players, 3 v 3 in truth, they cry gank... well...

 

#nofleets

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What happens to captured ships if "Send to outpost" is removed?

Edited by Skully
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What happens to captured ships if "Send to outpost" is removed?

 

Will store what I can in my ship. Leave the rest.

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Will store what I can in my ship. Leave the rest.

I don't like to sink my captures. :)

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I'm OK with AI fleets, I just want them to cost something. Perk points would be useful here.

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It is a game and there's enough NPC fleets around to provide shelter to a trader and they actually get spawned automatically by player presence in the area so they are almost always there.

I simply cannot find a strong reason for them to be in game without unbalancing a whole OW collection of gameplay.

It is simply a gimmick for "single players" that populate a multi player game.

But then when they are jumped by a true fleet of players, 3 v 3 in truth, they cry gank... well...

 

Usually very controlled.

But this seeems to be your personal "battlefield", right ?

 

The reason for not finding a reason is, you did not sail an Indiaman on your own?

Evidence? Here, you need empirical evidence.

 

I cannot give you academical proof, but I did around 100 trips on my Indy from A to B and B to A.

Why did I end up assigning a fleet to it, if it cost me only speed and crew (=money) if I get ganked?

 

Because I am stupid? Irrationale? Gimmick for "single players"?

Are you joking?

 

Because i play my profit-maximizing strategy here !

And this strategy depends on all those "sharks" out there trying to swallow me.

 

simplistic approach:

my strategies

A: no fleet

B. 2 AI fleet

 

situation: enemies out there, if so, they want to swallow me

 

Situation x:

an environment with NO enemies at all, what do I play ? A

 

Situation y:

an environment with 6th and 7th rates only, what do I play ? B

 

Situation z:

an environment with 4-5 5th rates and upwards only ..., what do I play ? A (anything else would cost more)

 

So, I cannot find a dominant strategy here. The dominant strategy exists,

if there are no big ships attacking.

 

Right, i have been assuming all want to attack me. Playing B only helps me in y.

 

By testing i found out, that my AI fleet puts the enemy off, even if there are 4,5,6,7, it is like in biology,

I am too time consuming to swallow, not so "sweet" anymore. They engage only with 50% probability.

 

OFC, even  if they were not out there to catch me, it goes like:

"Ey, Indy, catch him? Sure 5 min rage board, lets do then keep going and kill tha rats."

 

You are all out there for the little nice meal inbetween.

And all those, whose intention WAS NOT to capture traders and HUNT them (like you do) they are PUT OFF easily !

 

And this is the way, it should be !

Edited by Wilson09
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That's why I'd like to include perk points into the cost of using fleets. It's rational to use them, and really, there is very little downside. (Crew loss?)

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What happens to captured ships if "Send to outpost" is removed?

 

Could implement a "tow" feature. Send a minimal crew over to the captured ship to hook up a rope and pull it back to port. If you get caught in another battle, the captured ship is unusable. If you're sunk, you lose the capture - as is normal.

 

As for capturing multiple ships? That's a different discussion pertaining to the credibility of chain-boarding.

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That's why I'd like to include perk points into the cost of using fleets. It's rational to use them, and really, there is very little downside. (Crew loss?)

 

Some would say the downside is you are then using AI to do a job that real people could do. Added benefit being that you could inject more cash into the economy at the same time from the payments made to these escorts. 

 

Bring back the AI for the newbies only, if you must have some AI, since potentially they would not necessarily have the cash to pay for a player escort (however, crew limitations make it unlikely noobs will use the AI. I didn't). The bigger traders should be hiring real people to do that job.

Edited by Captain Kibble

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I agree that I prefer real player escorts for traders. However, I believe admin has mentioned on the forums in the past that he would like to keep some form of fleets for the many players who enjoy using them. I think tying it to perks is the best way to satisfy both sides' goals.

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>> then using AI to do a job that real people could do

Sure.

Clans don´t need it. But 3-5 player clans wont be together all the time.

 

You can counter-attack this argument.

Why does the "lonely" trinc-hunting-trader will not bring in more "friends" to get me down?

 

To be honest, i am just doing "test runs".

I am far from the point to verify that Trader+2 NPCs is profit-maximizing.

As loosing all 3 in battle is a disaster (crew + cargo loss).

 

I have not been caught recently, all of you are hunting LORD V. !

Edited by Wilson09

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Fair enough Wilson, I can see the others point of view hence living up with it and "sucking" it up. Still, as Powderhorn posts, there's room for improvement.

 

But then I am a dastard. I like to imagine a pirate not being a farmer, not owning a mine, etc... ( oops, OT again ;) )

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One might argue, I have not found the right "spot" or "role to fill in" as a player in NA.

(you must know, i started as a Dutch merchant and the crown did not like some of my actions...)

 

But then, even NASSAU had to be organized and run by "accountants"...

Not all can be out there and hunt hunt hunt....oh forgot, Lord V. can. He does not need a safe haven.

 

But I like some roleplay and Mortimer to be supplied with goods and "prosper" in any thinkable way. 

 

Sure, I play my "own" game in this respect, but we all do more or less.

Edited by Wilson09

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It is a game and there's enough NPC fleets around to provide shelter to a trader and they actually get spawned automatically by player presence in the area so they are almost always there.

 

The mechanic is here and it is used. Fine, okay, I understand, I have to play the game knowing it is in game, but I do not like it.

I simply cannot find a strong reason for them to be in game without unbalancing a whole OW collection of gameplay. It is simply a gimmick for "single players" that populate a multi player game. But then when they are jumped by a true fleet of players, 3 v 3 in truth, they cry gank... well...

 

#nofleets

 

The thing is if you have the extra crew to man a fleet of ships, then why wouldn't you?

 

I also think it should take an officer to command the ships, which should cost you money.   

 

Currently if you get jumped by a Niagara running with two AI Snows and you are in a lone Rattlesnake or the like, then perhaps you should have not been in that situation to start with.  

 

I have yet to be in a situation that I could not handle.  But people, not necessarily you, want an excuse for bad command choices. 

 

I don't know how many times I see people trying to attack something in the wrong ship for the job.   Like a Pavel trying to take down a Trader Lynx.... or running a Snow and trying to engage a Ronemee.  Or my favorite, an under crewed Bucentear chasing my Ronemee.  

 

The point is, you use the right tool for the right job.   If you can afford to use more than one ship, and are willing to deal with the speed penalties then by all means.  But if you want to sail by your lonesome then expect to run into fleets and learn how to avoid or counter them. 

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AI fleets in game sailing around for clans or player to attack fine. Player who needs an AI fleet not okay. This needs to be removed from the game. Fleet with others or go it alone.

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AI fleets in game sailing around for clans or player to attack fine. Player who needs an AI fleet not okay. This needs to be removed from the game. Fleet with others or go it alone.

 

Good you pointed with a finger on it.

I believe, the opposite should be the case.

 

In a "perfect NA action setting", NPCs would be reduced with rank and disappeared completely at max. rank.

No NPcs sailing around at all.

 

- AI fleets sailing around = no (yes, maybe, if they acted according to the diplomacy)

- player with AI = yes

 

Have not tagged a NPC in OW for.....6 weeks?

Never used them as a "coverage" or hideaway opportunity...

 

Trade / hunt players / the odd PB or fleet mission, thats my mantra.

No NPC farming.

Edited by Wilson09

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I tell you the fun is going from this game. PPL with AI fleets take the fun out of it. I was what I thought was an essex against a firgate. Me essex other other a frigate. It didn't show he had a AI fleet. Got into a battle he had a fleet. WHY!!! Why do people feel the need a fleet. You want to beat me. Beat me one on one or in a player fleet then. But if you have to have a AI fleet WHY WHY WHY are you in this game. GET RID OF THESE AI PLAYER FLEETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Ojibwa_Wind
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Wilson09 I'm not talking AI fleets that sail around in this game. I'm talking AI fleets that players add ship too their ship they are sailing in. I don't understand this at all. Listen I'm not the greatest player in this game but I like a PVP fight only or if you are /other players fleeting or in two's, what ever. Fine I know what Im going into. all player fleets are fine. But if you are a player that needs a AI fleet to battle every time. Then you didn't learn how to operate your ship. I was told "well you should take every advantage the game give's you. I disagree, you take advantage by developing your skills, learning how to operate your ship. Learning how to fleet with others. Learning battle tactics, both alone and fleeting up with other players. Taking on others is the advantage here. It is the game. Dropping sails and watching the AI ship do the battle for me is no fun. What is the fun in that. Unless you are not good with your skills, then you need the AI fleet.

 

Again DEV'S remove the AI fleeting here. It does not work in this game it limits player's alot.

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Never made an argument in case of AI fleet with warships.

Never used them there?

They just slow down and thats not good...

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