Timbers and their spacing

[SteelSandwich]

So, i came across some information and it sparked my interest/desire to learn more about it, hence this topic.

 

 

So, from what i gather Dutch merchants were build from large timbers running from the keel up to the topdeck. Yet warships were build accordingly to a different principle.

Instead of using 1 large timber, they used 2 smaller timbers, the lower reaching from the keel up to and including the main gundeck, the upper one from just below the waterline up to the topdeck (shown in the bottom part of the image).

 

What is the result of this? Well, there is an area of continued no-spacing timber frames from the waterline up to and including the main gundeck (shown in the top part of the image).

What would be the effect of this? It creates protection around the waterline and adds to the general hull-strength.

 

I know very little about timber spacing, yet i have never seen this kind of build. Are there some of you out there that know some more about this style of building, other nation's style of building, or information in general. Have you ever seen this before? I have read time and time again about the Constitution and her 'unique' no-spacing timbers, yet my knowledge ends right there and then..

 

Cheers!

[Fluffy Fishy]

I have some similar information that I posted previously to the venetian ships thread. full post is available below on the link I will also leave a couple of the pictures from the topic

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7685-venetianitalian-ship-collection-with-plans/page-7

Edited July 1, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[maturin]

I suppose that no spacing would be particularly desirable at the waterline. The trickiest part of plugging leaks is making sure you don't dislodge the surrounding timbers through excessive roughness. That's not as much of an issue if you are pounding the shot plug into solid scantlings, as opposed to caulked planks.

[SteelSandwich]

Very interesting Fluffy!

 

I find the timeframe of it even more interesting. The earliest Dutch example are dated to the 1640's. (to my knowledge) Which in time is rather close your example, 1666.

[Malachi]

That´s a pretty old-school type of framing. Extensively used by by the dutch in combination the shell-first method and exported to the rest of europe in the early to mid-17th century when dutch shipwrights were considered cream of the crop. This kind of framing can be seen on the swedish Vasa of 1628, by the way.

[SteelSandwich]

That´s a pretty old-school type of framing. Extensively used by by the dutch in combination the shell-first method and exported to the rest of europe in the early to mid-17th century when dutch shipwrights were considered cream of the crop.

This kind of framing can be seen on the swedish Vasa of 1628.

It is a bad way of framing a ship? Do you maybe have some examples of modern (1800) framing?

In line with that, is such a way of framing technically inferior to the modern day version?

[Malachi]

I don´think there was a 'bad' way to arrange the framing of a ship. At the end, it´s about the costs involved and whether the shipwright thought the additional weight (and thus displacement) was worth the supposed benefits of less distance between frames or not. However, leaving zero space between floors is a neat way to reduce the iron/shingle ballast needed to balance the ship (and the 'ballast' in form of these additional timbers is more evenly distributed).

 

Frames of a british 74-gun ship (1805)

 

 

La Renommée 1744 (note the diagonal planking inside the hull/below the wales)

 

 

Frames of Le Francois (based on the Album de Colbert, 1680)

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Malachi

[Fluffy Fishy]

Very interesting Fluffy!

 

I find the timeframe of it even more interesting. The earliest Dutch example are dated to the 1640's. (to my knowledge) Which in time is rather close your example, 1666.

If I looked really hard I might be able to dig up some stuff previous to that somewhere in the Arsenal records but the ones that are accessible to me only date back to around the the 1690s. Bearing in mind that the scientific methods of ship design hit Venice in the first half of the 17th century there is bound to be some exciting finds, its just getting to them thats a bit tricky. I am currently looking into Galileo and his affect on ship design I will probably post some findings here at some point but I will have a look and see if I can dive into some Arsenal records with any real efficiency to see if I can pull out some older documents on framing, while Venice isn't a big contender in the scope of this game as it currently stands their addiction to bureaucracy makes finding out detailed information both a blessing and a curse, depending on how much you like sifting through records, its a shame they primarily designed with models not paper though, otherwise I'm sure there would be a huge amount more to post.

Anyway, glad I could help out a bit. I will take a bit of time out from Galileo and friends and have a little look over the weekend, I might even have some framing material from my own collection dating back a little further than 1640 but not so easily presentable as that diagram, we shall see .

[Fluffy Fishy]

I have found and gathered some of the clearer displays of framing from my personal collections and resources, they are all Venetian because that's what I specialise in. I will put them in date order going backwards, older further down for those who are interested to see.

La Gabriella Model - 1640

Model of La Gabriella, the first (that I know of) successful attempt to ship design using scientific methods.

Lepanto Galleass - 1570

One of the huge Galleass that fought at the battle of Lepanto, staggering in size and crew size for its time.

Fiandra Galley - 1500

Galley outfitted to work on the trade route to Flanders and London.

Logonovo - 1400

River craft built to operate up and down the rivers leading into and calm waters of the lagoon.

Contarina - 1300

Similar to the Logovono a calm water ship designed for close trading in the Adriatic ports.

 

Porto Fuori - 1300

Small river and short distance transport craft to take small portions of goods around.

Bonus - 7th Century Sewn Boat.

A small boat with the frame sewn together, a cheap and light boat that's easy to repair. a little treat for reading down this far.

As ever when I do these things, if anyone wants to know more about a specific boat or planking, feel free to ask. I might not have the answer to hand but will do my best to find out for you if thats the case.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[maturin]

That´s a pretty old-school type of framing. Extensively used by by the dutch in combination the shell-first method and exported to the rest of europe in the early to mid-17th century when dutch shipwrights were considered cream of the crop. This kind of framing can be seen on the swedish Vasa of 1628, by the way.

Does this framing use shorter timbers to make up one rib, or does it just look that way? At first glance, I was sure it was a timber-saving strategy, since you don't need to work with such long tree trunks.