Privateer Rattlesnake - Chase guns possible in this position?

[OTMatt]

I have been looking around for various bits of data on the Rattlesnake and learned that the bowsprit gets in the way of the bow ports making the Rattlesnake an 18 gun ship rather than a 20 gun ship like many sites claim. Not only that but the ship can only carry 4 pounder guns. I measured a few 6 pounders from different plans and they did seem too tall for the ports. Some ship models showed them being too tall for the ports too, the guns aiming down sometimes.

 

Anyway looking at the options, I was wondering if you guys know if chase guns positioned like this could be possible. Its similar to the chase guns on the gun deck of the Trincomalee ingame. The arc of fire would be somewhat limited but the elevation is very good.

 

 

 

Maybe there's something I don't know? It would seem logical to me that the gundeck sides would be clear of any obstructions and 4 different Rattlesnake plans showed me nothing else but the bowsprit at the front. But you never know when something might be left out of the plan.

[Malachi]

These are bridle ports, no gun ports. A curious captain may have tried to move the foremost broadside guns to these ports, but wether this might have worked or not is up for discussion.

That ship is a joke anyway, imho.

[maturin]

Did you photoshop those guns in there? Or were they represented like that in the plan?

 

First thing you notice is that they can't be run out properly. No recoil with a chaser's high powder charge and asymmetrical breachings sounds like soooo much fun for the cramped guncrews. Also, you'd have the muzzle blast inboard, liable to fry the forecastle pinrails.

 

 

 

That ship is a joke anyway, imho.

Too tiny?

[OTMatt]

Did you photoshop those guns in there? Or were they represented like that in the plan?

 

First thing you notice is that they can't be run out properly. No recoil with a chaser's high powder charge and asymmetrical breachings sounds like soooo much fun for the cramped guncrews. Also, you'd have the muzzle blast inboard, liable to fry the forecastle pinrails.

 

Too tiny?

 

They are photoshopped in but to scale, maybe slightly larger but only by a few centimeters.

 

 

Yes the ship is too tiny to be of effective use and the fact that sail tagging is required in this game means that even its speed is not all that useful. So I dont know if chase guns can be possible but maybe we can find a good solution to the issue.

 

Largely my hope is based on the trincomalee ingame, its deck chase guns are also bridle ports and probably suffer from the same downsides you mentioned.

[Malachi]

Another thing to consider is if the hawse pieces were solid enough to absorb the recoil, especially with the asymmetrical breachings maturin mentioned.

 

Too tiny?

 

 

89 feet for 18 4-pounders and maybe enough room for 2 months of provisions may have been an interesting concept for a privateer but it looks out of place next to the 'grown-up' war ships

And with roughly 5' head clearance under the quarterdeck and probably even less under the forecastle it certainly wasn´t a comfortable experiment.

Dont get me wrong, small frigates, ship sloops and corvettes are my favourite type of ships, but this one....nah.

 

 

By the way, what´s the distance between the lower edge of the middle gunport and the waterline? Don´t have the plan, so I can´t measure it myself.

[LeBoiteux]

 89 feet for 18 4-pounders and maybe enough room for 2 months of provisions may have been an interesting concept for a privateer but it looks out of place next to the 'grown-up' war ships

What are the length of the Brigs and the Snow in game ?

[Malachi]

Mercury 96' / 30', Ontario 76'' / 25'. Rattlesnake 89' 3'' / 22' 4'' (!!)

[OTMatt]

Another thing to consider is if the hawse pieces were solid enough to absorb the recoil, especially with the asymmetrical breachings maturin mentioned.

 

 

89 feet for 18 4-pounders and maybe enough room for 2 months of provisions may have been an interesting concept for a privateer but it looks out of place next to the 'grown-up' war ships

And with roughly 5' head clearance under the quarterdeck and probably even less under the forecastle it certainly wasn´t a comfortable experiment.

Dont get me wrong, small frigates, ship sloops and corvettes are my favourite type of ships, but this one....nah.

 

 

By the way, what´s the distance between the lower edge of the middle gunport and the waterline? Don´t have the plan, so I can´t measure it myself.

 

Heres the link, I think its the most detailed plan available. The middle gunport is really low.

 

http://www.dlumberyard.com/Plans/rattlesnake.pdf

[Malachi]

Wow. 2 feet 9 inches...

[maturin]

Wow. 2 feet 8 inches...

Wuuuut

[Malachi]

Wuuuut

 

 

My sentiments exactly. This...can´t be right.

[OTMatt]

My sentiments exactly. This...can´t be right.

 

You can try the british plan.

 

http://i.imgur.com/7qaiDfV.png

 

I think theres a lesson learned here that player voted ships are not always the best idea Though I admit I voted for the rattlesnake too. She is still good looking though.

[LeBoiteux]

Mercury 96' / 30', Ontario 76'' / 25'. Rattlesnake 89' 3'' / 22' 4'' (!!)

 

Btw is narrowness a US trait of (some) ships from that time (I think of the Lynx and to some extent the Niagara) ?

[Malachi]

It´s not 'national' trait per se, it came down to the shipwright in question. France with it´s decentralised ship building had some pretty interesting examples of very high length-to-breadth ratios (Deslaurier´s L'Oiseau or the large 12-pounder frigates by Groignard with 4.3 : 1 or 4.4: 1). The average was probably around 3.8, with higher ratios at the end of the century.

[LeBoiteux]

Thx for those explanations. 

[DeRuyter]

From the plans it looks like she would have an 18 gun broadside and you'd have to shift the forward broadside gun forward to the bridle port for use as a chaser.

 

After capture she was reduced to an 18 guns broadside. The site linked below gives a nice synopsis of Rattlesnake. Notice the photo with the crew man for scale. I wouldn't think you'd see many ships of this size with a QD &FC - like a "miniature frigate". She will have a batter place in the game with proper pirate and privateering roles and missions, or proper draft mechanics.  

 

http://www.awiatsea.com/Privateers/R/Rattlesnake%20Massachusetts%20Ship%20%5BClark%5D.html

[Malachi]

For comparison, here´s another ship-sloop with very similiar dimensions, the danish Langeland (based on the british Royal Caroline):

 

 

91' 8'' / 23' 11'' (imperial)

 

No forecastle and the quarterdeck ends right behind the mizzen mast. Distance middle gun port / waterline: 5' 2''

A pity rather unknown ships like this won´t stand a chance in a player selection poll

[Prater]

Most brigs could only carry 4lbs.  Limiting the Rattlesnake to 6lbers would require limiting most of the small ships except the Lynx to 4lbers.  (Lynx carried 6 12lb guns - American 12lbers/medium 12lbers).  The yacht is a prime example of a gun where 6lb longs wouldn't work.

[OTMatt]

Most brigs could only carry 4lbs.  Limiting the Rattlesnake to 6lbers would require limiting most of the small ships except the Lynx to 4lbers.  (Lynx carried 6 12lb guns - American 12lbers/medium 12lbers).  The yacht is a prime example of a gun where 6lb longs wouldn't work.

 

I would like to see those kind of historical limitations. I don't think Rattlesnake will have the 6 pounders though even if the devs wanted to because the ports are too small.

 

Unless they cut the gun ports larger but honestly I would rather have the 4 pounders for historical accuracy.

[maturin]

Most brigs could only carry 4lbs.  Limiting the Rattlesnake to 6lbers would require limiting most of the small ships except the Lynx to 4lbers.  (Lynx carried 6 12lb guns - American 12lbers/medium 12lbers).  The yacht is a prime example of a gun where 6lb longs wouldn't work.

Just to put things in perspective, the Brig is two feet wider than Rattlesnake.

 

And the real Lynx was a lot bigger than the in-game schooner.

 

No argument about the yacht's tiny gunports.

[akd]

This certainly raises the question why bridle ports on the Trincomalee that are angled even less far forward are treated as forward-firing chasers in game.

[Malachi]

That´s a very good question, akd

[OTMatt]

That´s a very good question, akd

 

I'm thinking if the developers can allow this kind of capability on the trincomalee then maybe it could be considered for any ship where its feasible.

 

Not that I would want it to be a permanent setup, but temporarily the Rattlesnake can carry 4 pounder guns in the bow and then have them removed later. At that point the developers can implement a feature where crews can spend a few minutes shifting broadside cannons to the front with the downsides of reduced rate of fire and limited arc to represent the limitations of bridle ports.

 

The admin did mention a few weeks ago an idea where captains have the option to shift broadside cannons to stern windows so it does seem like he wants some flexibility for captains ingame. Being that it is a privateer I can certainly see some players that would appreciate this feature.

[maturin]

If we're going to have imaginary bridle port bow chasers, they should be added to unpopular ships. They shouldn't be artificially inflating the importance of a ship that is already ubiquitous for silly ahistorical reasons!

[OTMatt]

If we're going to have imaginary bridle port bow chasers, they should be added to unpopular ships. They shouldn't be artificially inflating the importance of a ship that is already ubiquitous for silly ahistorical reasons!

 

I see what you mean when I saw your post on the USS Essex. I think she could use them too since she does not feel all that useful in the open world without group support. But why leave the Rattlesnake out? It hasn't been released yet so now would be a great opportunity to make changes.