Black Knight the first Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Tbh at this point, if you are unable/unwilling to provide tools to counter this sort of thing (and I understand that there are higher priority things to do, and agree) you should disable direct trade. It would also stop the problem of people exploiting player trades to reroll and keep their gear, be they switching nation or scammers undergoing a facelift. Naw, people should just be smarter about who they trade with. Name and shame at will- that'll help. Don't try and convince the devs to bugger the rest of us because you don't like the Dev's stance on focusing on other more important topics as opposed to statiscial outliers and bad apples. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratline Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Naw, people should just be smarter about who they trade with. Name and shame at will- that'll help. Don't try and convince the devs to bugger the rest of us because you don't like the Dev's stance on focusing on other more important topics as opposed to statiscial outliers and bad apples. Name and shame really does nothing much except perhaps warn off the odd person that actually reads the forums. These guys enjoy the notoriety, they're currently trolling about it again in Brit chat Ah, snap didn't take any ss, but still better things to do than police TRR for its leader, their rep is already rock bottom. Getting things such as a workable escrow system into the game should, really, be something of a priority. Trade and crafting are important and it would benefit more than the prevention of edge cases. It would open up new forms of gameplay in transporting/hauling and more complex trade agreements. That would surely be a good thing? Maybe not right away but in the not too distant future. In the meantime plugging exploits and ways in which people can troll/grief isn't unimportant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight the first Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) Name and shame really does nothing much except perhaps warn off the odd person that actually reads the forums. These guys enjoy the notoriety, they're currently trolling about it again in Brit chat Ah, snap didn't take any ss, but still better things to do than police TRR for its leader, their rep is already rock bottom. Getting things such as a workable escrow system into the game should, really, be something of a priority. Trade and crafting are important and it would benefit more than the prevention of edge cases. It would open up new forms of gameplay in transporting/hauling and more complex trade agreements. That would surely be a good thing? Maybe not right away but in the not too distant future. In the meantime plugging exploits and ways in which people can troll/grief isn't unimportant. Orders of priority, man. A handful of bad apples does not negate that a significant number of folks use the trade system without abuse daily. You disable trading and you pretty much stymie the custom crafting scene, especially for those traders who prefer to deal in items other than gold. Or you kick the guys who help their newer or junior guys by giving them ships and gold and such. That there's what, three or four guys who you've specifically pointed out as abusing the system versus hundreds, if not thousands using it properly speaks volumes. Anecdotally- until this thread came about, I'd not yeard of anyone pulling these shenanigans. I spend a lot of time in this game, on PVP2. So, your mileage may vary. Edited March 6, 2016 by Blackknight64 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swieb Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 This cracks me up. Not every pirate flies the black flag it seems. And not every criminal is a pirate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratline Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) Orders of priority, man. A handful of bad apples does not negate that a significant number of folks use the trade system without abuse daily. You disable trading and you pretty much stymie the custom crafting scene, especially for those traders who prefer to deal in items other than gold. Or you kick the guys who help their newer or junior guys by giving them ships and gold and such. That there's what, three or four guys who you've specifically pointed out as abusing the system versus hundreds, if not thousands using it properly speaks volumes. Anecdotally- until this thread came about, I'd not yeard of anyone pulling these shenanigans. I spend a lot of time in this game, on PVP2. So, your mileage may vary. Yeah I know, and as a ship builder I'd rather not have it disabled (hence my dismay at the devs saying it's that or nothing). I'm just disappointed at their apparent reluctance to accept that there are solutions which don't involve overly drastic measures (removing player to player trade) or simply washing their hands of the matter. I was being somewhat tongue in cheek. And yes I agree that it's a small minority of idiots causing a disproportionate amount of drama. They seem to all be linked to this one clan on pvp1 as far as the Brits go. Edited March 6, 2016 by Ratline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Thomson Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 You just dont understand. Logs show the deals yes. But someone have to do manual work. Our principle that all problems must be cut off by design. Manual work costs a lot of money and time. False reports also increase the manual work for checking if the report is true or not. All reports can be forged (photoshopped chat etc) further increasing manual work. Great systems are automatic and it is our main principle of work. Good products do not require constant manual human maintenance and cut cheating potential by design. So for me if player to player trade allows scamming and players forget basic life principles of not trusting strangers on the internet - it is better to just switch off trade as it was done initially (if all trade had to go through the market eliminating ALL scamming completely). Like right now. I am reading this instead of working on the game, while 95% of players wait for me to handle the issue that they dont care about at all, because they only trade with friends and need epic events, officers more ships etc. I am focused on problems of 95% of players during the development. remember it is alpha and game is in development. some things are not working or do not exist (like service professionals reading logs for example) You sir, are great developer. *Tip hat* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of Whales Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 When dealing with potentially unknown crafters, it is common sense to expect some sort of collateral in trade for your materials. A fat pile of money, a similar ship, etc. Something to ensure that the guy doesn't run off with your goods. When trading you can always see what the other guy offers, and can either accept or decline. If the other guy insists on not giving you collateral, then go find someone else, because it's not worth the risk. What do you think will happen when these scammers reach an even higher level? They'll try to run off with all the mats (and payment) for a Santi. I would not risk it. No collateral, no trade. BTW, all the high-level crafters I know are prolific builders who are more limited by their crafting hours than by their supply of materials. I can reasonably expect them to have enough materials BEFORE my trade to make the ship I want, so all I am doing is refilling their stockpile, while funding their acquisition of more resources, and paying them to get more crafting exp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tindahbawx Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 You can only allow space for scammers and con artists if there is a way for recourse to be sought by the victims. IRL if somebody scams you there are options beyond 'suck it up'. You can go to the police, go to the courts, or go around with some very large mates and have a friendly word with the scammers kneecaps. None of these are options in this game, scamming is risk free. Even more so now that the devs have enabled people to simply scam away, hand their stuff to a mate and delete/rename their character with no loss even of xp. Ironically enough pirates are the only ones with currently in game means to make a scammers life hell, they can just attack him relentlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajffighter86 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 I think there needs to be space for scammers and con artists as well. It IS an open world, sandbox game, after all. However, the abusive/taunting chat SHOULD easily be dealt with via chat ban, at least in my opinion. But that's not the point of this thread. I really am aiming to name and shame the cons, and, as I mentioned earlier, would like to add in the legitimate businesspeople, but I've yet to see anyone make any recommendations for that list. All that aside, I hope that TRR has no affiliation with the gaming community with the same letters from the Battle Grounds 2 game and (more recently) the Napoleonic mod of Mount and Blade: Warband. (I would like some answer on that, one way or another.) Indeed, the game does give a large amount of freedom to roleplay as you see fit, with a touch of imagination thrown in. If you want to be a scummy swindler, there's not much stopping you except you'd only be able to swindle a few folks before word got out about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratline Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Ironically enough pirates are the only ones with currently in game means to make a scammers life hell, they can just attack him relentlessly. Maybe we should all go pirate and just make the game clan vs clan.Seems like it might be going that way anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajffighter86 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) Tbh at this point, if you are unable/unwilling to provide tools to counter this sort of thing (and I understand that there are higher priority things to do, and agree) you should disable direct trade. It would also stop the problem of people exploiting player trades to reroll and keep their gear, be they switching nation or scammers undergoing a facelift. But you realize these are really only problems for people who trade with strangers, right? Disabling direct trade for everyone in the game world because you get scammed out of materials for a Pavel, well, that isn't really fair to the majority of players who are wise enough to do these deals with people they know. You realize you can essentially 'disable' direct trade by not engaging in it as a personal choice. That doesn't require a developer's intervention. Even if the developers were to make a fool-proof, scam-proof means of trading directly, why on earth would you insist on trading with someone you don't know, versus someone who is actually concerned about building a positive reputation and assembling a list of clients to do business with in the future? To put it more bluntly, if the developers were to drop what they were doing and develop a system in which you can't be scammed, would you still want to do business with this 'LtDean' guy or any of the TRR guys? I wouldn't. When I first started in the game I didn't focus much on crafting, and 'sold' most of my labor hours to people who didn't know me. The orders were small at first. They'd give me a handful of iron and coal, and I'd make some ingots or something. It was low-risk. What grew from that, was me establishing myself as a reputable crafter-for-hire. I didn't make ships, but when someone needed something like medium carriages or iron fittings (parts, in general), they'd come to me. I was level 13 in crafting xp before I even made my first ship. Instead, I leveled up mostly from taking materials from other players, crafting them into what they wanted, and then trading them back for the payment. Just my opinion, perhaps, but I think if the developers make some simplistic means of trading directly where no one can ever be scammed, then it will devalue the importance of building a reputation in an MMORPG like Naval Action. Edited March 7, 2016 by ajffighter86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spud Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 These are probably people you don't want to do deals with IRL either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalakithSkadi Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) Suck it up or get your idiot clanmates to stop scamming. Got some evidence to prove they haven't? Given two of them are not longer even with us and nobody has had a single complaint for any reason against the remaining one for weeks I am yet to be proven otherwise. All I see is ongoing idealogical rants from the likes of Ratline throwing accusations around with no evidence, the answer to which is apparently it isn't his job yet I am supposed to be both omnipotent and omnipresent. If you want to complain, prove the problem and it will be resolved. Otherwise it is just ranting for the sake of feeling superior. Edited March 7, 2016 by MalakithSkadi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spam Hands Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 It is you and the scammers who have dirtied the TRR clan reputation. It is up to you to improve your image if you want to; not for other people to grub around in the filth looking for more gobbets of chatlog villainy. If you are happy with TRR having the reputation of a scammer clan then you can remain as you are and don't need to do anything. If you want to change TRR having the reputation of a scammer clan then do something to change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratline Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Got some evidence to prove they haven't? Given two of them are not longer even with us and nobody has had a single complaint for any reason against the remaining one for weeks I am yet to be proven otherwise. All I see is ongoing idealogical rants from the likes of Ratline throwing accusations around with no evidence, the answer to which is apparently it isn't his job yet I am supposed to be both omnipotent and omnipresent. If you want to complain, prove the problem and it will be resolved. Otherwise it is just ranting for the sake of feeling superior. Oh please, it wasn't an ideological rant. No it's not my job to police your clan and I couldn't care less if your rep is trashed, those of us who witnessed the trolling don't need the proof The reaction to all this was defensive and weak, and the behaviour of some of your members (not just the scammers) rather unpleasant. I don't go around taking screenshots of every idiot in Brit chat on the off chance their clan leader doesn't know how they behave and asks for proof. Know your members, goes a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powderhorn Posted October 28, 2016 Author Share Posted October 28, 2016 Alan Snackbar - American of Ill Repute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrdoomed Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Alan Snackbar - American of Ill Repute Blacklisted alts wont matter. Tomorrow he will have a new name. THats or this is what happens when you can have as many alts as you want restart with new names on new factions as often as you want with ZERO penalty. Wait till it goes live and 2000 try hards have 7000 alts and destroy the economy and trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leku Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Oh. Alan snackbar ... You also should watch out for PowerFluffy or something like that. They sail together and work together. Was attacked by them even when i said we`r allies ... That 3 day voting bug ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynd Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 If you can't afford to lose the cash; try to only trade labour hours with members of big or well-known clans. This way you can take it up with their officers if you get scammed, who will probably help you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van der Clam Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Send it to the tribunal, the devs have stated pretty clearly that this isn't Eve and they wont tolerate things like this. According to admin and moderators, altho they discourage this behavior, it is not against the rules to scam. We just need to be more vigilant ourselves, and this OP is one good way help us. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/17124-alan-snackbar-griefing-scamming/?p=328915 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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